Lucas Hendrickson: Creating anything new, be it a song or a poem or yes, even whiskey can be a magical process and it can sometimes be the hardest thing you think you'll ever do. On this episode, we talk to singer-songwriter Jerrod Niemann about the art and mystery of songwriting, how parental approval isn't always the best thing when it comes to growing as an artist, and how the realization that military service isn't just about the family member deployed, brought about his most recent single, “Old Glory.” All this and more, Around the Barrel.
Welcome back to Around the Barrel, the official podcast from the makers of Jack Daniel’s. I'm your host, Lucas Hendrickson. Growing up in southwestern Kansas, Jerrod Niemann saw the names on the country music records his parents and grandparents played for him, but didn't really think his name would be on them one day. He just knew the music spoke to him. That's the thing about the best forms of inspiration. They seemingly show up out of nowhere, but are really around you all the time. These days, Jerrod is a chart-topping singer-songwriter with credits from some of the biggest names in country music as well as his own solo works. He's a prototypical decade-long overnight sensation whose love of music got a helpful push while he was on four wheels. Well, eight really…
Jerrod Niemann: Hey, this is Jerrod Niemann from Liberal, Kansas. And I am in Nashville Tennessee, a singer-songwriter. I'm ready to talk about all things life and all things whiskey.
Lucas: Jerrod Niemann, welcome to Around the Barrel.
Jerrod: Man, it is good to be here.
Lucas: We know and we've heard so many stories about Jack Daniels’ influence in so many ways on the world of music on the world of pop music, country, rock, R&B, hip-hop, that kind of stuff. So tell us a little bit about your journey as far as where did your interest in songs come from and when did you first kind of recognize an aptitude, a talent, a desire to be a songwriter?
Jerrod: Man I just you know, I heard a quote many years ago and I don't know who said it. I wish it was me but it was “We don't choose music, music chooses us.” That's probably the first time I felt something profound actually sink into my thick head and really, you know, the truth is whether it's a song that just you need to hear that changes your life, your state of mind or if you’re the actual vehicle for the music, you’re just kind of bitten by that bug so my parents used to own a roller skating rink back when that was popular, it was kind of the tail end and so I just always associated, you know music with fun because they'd play, you know “Walk This Way” and then turn around and play “Elvira” and so I just kind of, it just always was a party to me when it came to music.
Lucas: So what was the first song you remember having an impact and making you want to go “I want to try to do this?”
Jerrod: Yeah, that's I don't really know if it was you know, I do remember George Strait came out with a Christmas album and it was 1986. I was just a little kid but I remembered his voice, and my parents bought the album and I listened to it almost year-round and my parents just thought I was a lunatic, and my mom's like “Why are you listening to Jingle Bells or whatever? In July?” and I said “His voice.” and she's like “Well, you know he has other other songs.” So I started realizing that guys like George Strait and Keith Whitley and Randy Travis you would instantly connect to their music and then you'd hear them talk about someone like Merle Haggard, and then you have Merle Haggard talk about Lefty Frizzell and then I'm like, “Well who's that?” and then it would be him talking about Ernest Tubb and then him talk about Jimmie Rodgers and then you're in the ‘20s and you just realize all your heroes had heroes, and that's what really inspired me was to just keep digging deep until I got to the beginning.
Lucas: When you did that deep dive, which artist kind of most impacted you that way? You know, you traced a great, generational kind of thing. But how far did you go back and did you realize like this was the root of this tree of all this other stuff that I am interested in?
Jerrod: Well, I got him as my first tattoo, Lefty Frizzell. So, Hank Williams Sr. and Lefty were kind of co-headlining there and kind of swapping, you know roles, who's going to open, who's going to close, and Lefty’s the only country artist to have four songs in the top ten at the same time and just had a lot of really cool stuff going on but someone like Hank that unfortunately got taken away in the pinnacle of his career. You kind of just get stuck in that legend status, that mystique but Lefty just you know, he lived his life and ended up dying at 47 of a stroke and he didn't end on that high note. So was he just overlooked, but if you go back and listen to Merle Haggard, one of his famous quotes is "90% of the reason he's in country music is because of Lefty Frizzell, and he's still not sure the other 10% isn’t." And he sounds really similar and so I just thought wow, Lefty is so underrated, he was such a huge influence to so many artists and so for me, I just have always leaned towards the underdogs and he just seems like someone that people should have more awareness about.
Lucas: These days obviously we can pretty easily go back and listen to the stuff that that is available to us at our fingertips, on our phones, that kind of thing. What did you have to do when you were a kid and again doing the deep dive and you know, it's not like there was Lefty Frizzell on Spotify at that point. What what what was your discovery process? How did you uncover these things?
Jerrod: When you go into one of these music stores and you see this album that you've been looking for forever. Like, Hank Williams Jr, The New South record, I looked for it for years, but my grandparents both really loved country music and it was interesting because my grandma would give me these old records. She really loved Eddie Arnold and Roger Miller which are so polar opposite, you know, and he's so quirky and funny and she showed me “Dang Me” and and then “Make the World Go Away” and I just thought wow the same woman finds this guy funny and cool, and finds this guy, you know classy and handsome or whatever. But basically that was a mind opening experience like at the roller skating rink, I was too young to fathom. I mean, you saw it you get excited and want to go out there too and people did, but for me, it was cool to kind of be exposed to some of the older stuff through my grandparents.
Lucas: So from there to now again what are those keys to identifying and locking in on an idea that can turn into a great song?
Jerrod: I do feel like there's those unwritten rules for commercial music that have to be instilled into your subconscious, like a song can't be six minutes anymore. So you kind of notice when you're writing a song if it’s getting a little long, you know, you can kind of feel just some of the basics, but it seems like to me the most magical songs are the ones that happen pretty fast, they just come out of nowhere and sometimes I mean you can get together with, you know a couple other guys or girls at 10 in the morning and everybody sits there and tries to Brain Ninja the listener, you know, their emotions and stuff and you can actually construct a hit song but I can almost hear a song come on the radio and tell if someone wrote it by themselves, because it's just unique enough, and it's just flawed perfectly, but with Nashville, there's just such great teachers, you know, so many people that can do it so well that you know the special ones really seem to stick out, and those are the ones end up being Song of the Year, and all of us said, “Oh, yeah the first time I heard that” that's everybody. So it's just one of those songs that’s just meant to be a part of the world.
Lucas: How much is there a learning curve in going from writing by yourself in a basement and you know when you're a teenager and just trying to figure out how to pick at a guitar or pluck at a piano or whatever to then doing the more structured idea of a writing room with people on Music Row that kind of thing. What was the learning curve like for you on that? I mean how did you struggle through or was it something that you picked up pretty naturally and then just went from there?
Jerrod: Well, it was weird, you know I first went to a college in Levelland Texas called South Plains and it was kind of like a miniature Belmont in a way. It's got its own thing and its own charm and I'm on the Advisory Board so I get to help be a part of the creative process and with you know, the young men and women and but that was the first moment that I went in there and this instructor Cary Banks said, “Well play me your favorite song you've ever written” and I played it and he said “Man, I bet your Mom really likes that, doesn't she?” and I said, “Yeah she does” he's like “Well, she's probably the only one, because it sucks” and you know, you're like “Jeez,” you know “jerk.” but he was correct because he said “Look, in the verses you're saying she, in the choruses you're saying you, that doesn’t even make sense. It's too long. It's on the Tennessee Waltz Melody.” I mean he was just telling me the truth, and it sucked but you know, I needed to hear it and then he realized that this little school with all these talented people here, imagine the rest of the world and so it just kind of scares the crap out of you, well, I got some work cut out would be an understatement ahead of me. So knowing that just kind of put some fuel in my engine and so when I finally moved to Nashville you really don't necessarily, you know, get thrown into the room with Dean Dillon on day one, you know.
Lucas: Again talking about your path. What was your path through the perils of label politics and getting that first deal and getting stuff out onto the airwaves including your first big hit, a song called ”Lover, Lover.”
Jerrod: That's right. You know my first, what was crazy was the first I guess “pinch me” moment that happened in Nashville that kind of leads into obviously my very long-winded answer you're about to receive, I ran into a buddy that I went to college with and I go “What are you doing?” And he said “What are you doing?” I said I didn’t, we didn't know each other moved to Nashville and we started writing songs and he always in college would talk about how one day he was going to write with Garth Brooks and everybody would make fun of him. And I mean I didn’t, I thought, "More power to him." So I kind of had a crush on this girl since I moved to Nashville about I don't know six months or something and I finally got her to give me the time of day and we were on our first date, we go back to my place. All of a sudden I hear the door start, just someone banging on it, you know like they’re running from something scary and I thought “Who is that?” I look out the window and I saw my buddy and I thought that's weird because he lives so far away. So she's like “Don't you dare go get that.” I was like “It’s my friend. I can't just leave him,” you know, so I go down there open the door. He's like “Oh my God, man.” he's like “I just ran into Garth Brooks and oh my God,” he's like “Do you have a minute?” I was like, yeah, so he just said “I ran into him and I told him I know it wasn't proper etiquette to ask this but what's it take to write with Garth Brooks?” and Garth just being cool as he is all these amazing stories you hear about him, he just said “Well, I'll tell you what, drop some songs off the studio and if it kind of fits in the direction we're headed, you'll hear from me. If not, you won’t.” basically. And he said “Well, you know I write write these songs with my buddy Jerrod and so he's like, “Well I want to hear from both of you.” So he's like, let's start recording, so we end up recording 15 songs. Most of them, I think 12 of them I had written, and three we'd written together, which is probably 12 songs too many to put on there, and so we drop it off the next day and my mom's in town for Mother's Day and I'm taking her to the airport. And I said, “Yeah, it'll be neat someday to tell my kids that Garth Brooks listened to some songs I wrote one time” and it literally was within the minute my phone rang. It said “Caller ID blocked” and I thought collection agency or something like that, telemarketer. And I answered and it was Garth on the phone and I could just tell it was, I mean, I knew it was him I could tell by his voice and also we hadn't really told anybody for anybody to be doing such a horrible joke, pretending to be Garth. So I got starstruck and I just like got lightheaded and started swerving my mom's like “What the hell are you doing?” And I’m like “Garth Brooks is on the phone” and she's going “Pull over” so we just had this great conversation about the songs that we sent and he invited us out to his house and we just started writing. And it just, that moment was the first moment that really changed my life and made people at least take a serious look so it led into a first record deal, it was just a developmental deal. And I know you're familiar with that but for everybody out there that's not familiar, what they'll do is, it's like if you're too young or kind of green or if the label’s not a hundred percent convinced that you should be on the roster, they'll give you a budget to go record three, four songs and then let you finish the album if it's what they're thinking. So I went and recorded three songs with Mercury, and September 11th happened, and I'm not blaming it on that, obviously, I don't know but I know it certainly didn't assist, but obviously they were bigger problems in the world than mine. But it was just one of those moments where it didn't work out then, but at least made me feel good that someone cared enough to give me a shot. And then right after that a couple of years, I found an independent record label that was in Asheville starting to have some success with independents, and it was a disaster. It was an absolute disaster and when I got done with the record deal, I’d gained like 60 pounds or something and I just became a hermit and just stayed at my place and I didn't return anybody’s call including my publishing company for almost a year and that's when I just kind of woke up one day and just said, “You know what? I'm not going down like that. Hell no.” And so I lost all the weight. I worked hard. I made album all of my own over the next year and a half and I just had a chip on my shoulder and I just wanted to show everybody that you know, they didn't believe in me and I was going to try to make them regret it.
Lucas: And then “Lover, Lover” dropped into your radar.
Jerrod: Yeah so, while making that album, and it was above a shoe store just a little tiny little recording studio. My buddy would get done with paying clients around 10 p.m. And we had a handshake deal that we’d produce the record together on his spare time and whatever he wanted I’d give it to him if it worked out, and that's kind of as serious as we got with the business side of it and over that next year and a half recording at 10 p.m. to 3 a.m,. obviously, you're delirious and it's the best time to just do some really stupid crap. So we just we had so much fun that we were recording all this nonsense that I thought man, I wish people could feel how much fun we're having here because I could just feel my life changing. I can feel just this vibe, this negative force that had overcome me, you know just changing and it was just amazing. I wanted other people that were going through that to feel good. So we started editing all this content of crap that we had recorded and started making these little skits out of them and added the interstitials to the record. So it ended up having 12 songs and eight skits and just kind of made it a concept record. And the thing was, I wanted a label to hear it and want to take those off. Like I wanted someone to mess with it. I was just pretty jaded, pretty jaded and but it's what I needed to happen, you know to make, so “Lover, Lover” was the last song I recorded on a whim just for fun. And that was the hardest part was when that song hit and went number one, everyone's like, “Oh man. That's awesome. Well, obviously you got a vision what's next?” and I was like, “Well, that was an accident. I wasn't planning on recording that” so but it was just so cool to watch some of that stuff unfold.
Lucas: So that got you rolling, that song and that process, so in the midst of all that, what did you continue to learn about the craft of songwriting? How did that change for you, you know, once you get a little success under your belt?
Jerrod: Man, it's tough because with Judge Jerrod and the Hung Jury, I was the only voice that I had to answer to, because it was my own thing. Once you're on a label you would think that their natural instinct would be “Well, you just did that first album, so go bring us another one.” No. And everybody you’re working with obviously you want to know their opinion and you should because you are working together and you're on a team and everybody wants to succeed but I do find it odd that someone that works with 20 artists that isn't musical at all, thinks that they know more about you than you do, whenever you think about your whole life. So even if you say okay take their idea and find a way around it where you don’t, you can kind of do your own thing, those thoughts and those suggestions and all that stuff starts, you know getting in your head and there's just so many cooks in the kitchen that you know, you just you try to make everybody happy and that's not always the best case. So when people just kind of let you do your thing, that's when you can either, you know, hang it on rope or really succeed and so I've been in situations where I've been able to do my own thing and feel like a real artist and in places where I really had to fight to have an identity.
Lucas: Yeah. so, I mean you've had number ones, you've had success with party songs like “Drink to That All Night” and things of that nature but we're in a little bit of an age where there seems to be some more kind of serious themes and serious, you know approaches coming into country songs and you have a track right now called “Old Glory” that speaks very directly to patriotism and the idea of the sacrifices that our service members make for us, what kind of things spur you to try more serious songs versus you know, more good time songs and do you gather anymore, you know satisfaction from the serious side of things?
Jerrod: Yeah, because you know, I think as an artist your view on the world can change, you know in a second and it'll change, your music will change your whole world, and a lot of times I would always put you know, 10 party songs on an album just because I wanted people to be able to escape and if they were running from something that they just wanted a break from in real life, but as you take more trips around the Sun and hopefully gain more wisdom you realize that you can't always run, sometimes you need songs to help you face those situations and so for me, I think that I was just running from a lot that I didn't want to face. So it's easy to record those songs to escape myself, but things like “Old Glory,” you know, it's just it's weird because I've always supported the military just you know, both of my grandfathers were in the military and just you know, just something you do, you appreciate what they sacrifice and so I would always give a shout out on stage and then people would say, “Hey, well have you been over to visit us?” you know, and I'm like no and it was because it's harder than you know, you think to get over there because there's a lot of artists that want to do it. So I had a guy from Toby Keith's camp start working with us and he'd been over there several times and he knew a contact. So we reached out to the USO and got to be a part of the first one I went on and you know, obviously we are all very aware of the battlefield and people losing their lives and their limbs and their brains, I mean just their minds, their happiness, and that's plenty obviously enough, you know for me, but what I didn't realize just I guess ignorance of just not being exposed to it, is the sacrifices that are obvious that you just don't think of and you know people missing their babies being born, and we were in Iraq on Christmas Day the next tour I did where there was a guy that told me that his wife left him on Christmas Eve and he's got to wait eight more months over there just to try to come home and get her back, and I thought “Oh, that’d be the worst” and then one guy said “Well, my mom died earlier this month and I didn't go to her funeral” and then you know, and everybody's showing us videos of kids opening presents and I just thought damn I mean that's just, that's why they do it so we don't have to worry about it. But I just never thought about that and I thought man, I know there's so many other people that don’t, and so I just wanted to write a song that wasn’t, such a divided country we live in, I didn't want to stoke the fire. I just really want to write something of how I felt impacted by what they do and what their families sacrifice because you always heard, well, it's the whole family that serves, and it is crazy how true that is and I just have had so many different instances whether it's here at a base. We had a guy at Fort Hood. He said, “Oh, I'm leaving Sunday again for a year.” Yeah, and and his little boy said, “Yeah for another year” and I looked at him and his daughter, his wife. I just saw on their faces. I've never seen a family dreading someone else leaving, now I usually see them overseas, hoping they get to come home. So just those little things that just really hit me permanently and just changed me as a person like I just almost feel like it modified me and I just really want to help them and their families out.
Lucas: Yeah, well along with that and in honoring the sacrifices that not only these service members but also their families as you say, you know are involved in in in all these deployments. Obviously, Jack Daniel’s has been involved for a number of years with their Operation Ride Home program for that. Can you talk a little bit about your awareness of all that?
Jerrod: Yeah. I'll tell you what, that's just another reason that I'm just so proud to live in this great country when you got brands like Jack Daniel’s that have been around for so long and are so vast that they're worried about the families of our brave men and women and so, you know, what I didn't realize is, you know, some of these these younger brave heroes that we have out there, they can't afford to come home in the holidays and I was just under the impression that if you're in the military surely you could get sent home, I mean that's the least we could do, so I could you know, it makes sense to me that a group like Jack Daniel’s would see that that said “Hey, you know these people deserve to be together, you know for what they do for us year round.” So I was blown away by one, learning that they didn't get to go home and then two, that not only does Jack Daniel’s help all these people and their families get home for the holidays, but they also created a platform for all of us to be able to donate, you know, if you're out there and especially around the holidays, it's hard to find extra funds. But whether you have $5, $10, $20, $100, you know, you can go to the website and donate.
Lucas: And that's the great thing that you know, Friends of Jack have that opportunity to also give back to these service people at JDOperationRideHome.com. You can send your donations there and you can, you know, send your well wishes and hopes for all those folks to make it home for those important things and it's not just the holidays. It's a year-round operation. There are graduations and births and sadly, deaths that these junior folks sometimes can't get to, this fund helps them with that.
Jerrod: Yeah. I think it's an amazing idea and you know just talking about those coming home, you know, just if you don't mind touching on our vets for a second that's another thing is it's like this, when I go overseas, I see everybody in their uniform and it's like this perfectly oiled machine of just people that are all unified and have each other's back. But then you hear about you know, PTSD and I think another moment that changed my life was someone said that every 65 minutes one of our Vets commits suicide and to go from what I see when I'm over there to that, there's just a lot that has to obviously happen of stuff that I don't see clearly, but also when you do get home and you just have sacrificed missing all those, you know all those beautiful memories that we all get to have and then you just get disrespected all the time, or you feel like you're not getting the respect that you deserve, It'd be easy to feel that way. It would be easy to feel you know, like “Wow, what am I fighting for,” you know and I've never taken a step in anybody's shoes but my own so I really can't put myself in that situation. I can just hear the stories and try to be there for them, but it's just man, it's not right and it's not fair and it’s the VA and there's just so many things that we could be doing because really the least we could do for our vets, is everything.
Lucas: Yes. Absolutely. So will you play a little bit of “Old Glory” for us and kind of tell us the pieces of that, that mean the most to you?
Jerrod: I’d love to give you a little director's cut. So it's from the perspective of, I wrote “Old Glory” from the perspective of a soldier but I didn't want to sing it since I'm not a soldier until obviously our brave men and women approved it. So I went overseas to play the song and we were in Spain the first night of the next USO tour, and I played the song and got a reaction I certainly was very grateful for but wasn't expecting and here's the chorus, here's probably one of my very favorite parts of the song:
[sung]
So don't tread on me or my memory,
I fight for you so that you're free.
We've never met, but bet I'll do it again.
And I’ll lose my mind. I'll give my life,
if that's what it costs for that flag to fly.
And I’ll wear it proud like all the others before me,
why the hell you think they call it “Old Glory?”
Lucas: And what was their reaction? Did they go nuts when they heard that?
Jerrod: After the first chorus, I heard a couple hoots and hollers, but I think they kinda wanted to know where I was going with it. And then once we got to the second chorus there was a few more but I think the part that is my favorite part of the song because it does stress the realization I had as being a civilian, here's the bridge:
[sung]
The eagle spreads its wings all over the world,
to many miles from husbands and wives and little boys and girls.
Back home, missing first steps and wedding rings,
last words and angel wings, but if that's what it takes,
Well, that's what it takes.
Jerrod: And that's kind of the moment for me where it reminds you that they’re people, and they're all of us and they came from the same background, same holiday, same everything that we do. They're just a half a world away.
Lucas: Sure. Jerrod, we thank you for your time. Where can people find you on the "social medias" and that kind of thing? What's coming up for you in the early part of 2019?
Jerrod: Well, we got a new tour that we're working on. It's going to be so exciting because I got my foot in the door writing songs, you know, as we briefly talked about, on stage obviously you don't really get to go too much in depth on some of these details and cool things that happened in your life that got you to where you're at, you know on that very stage at that moment. So, I'm going to be doing an acoustic tour with just me and a couple guys in the band and we’ll be able to do some songs written for Garth and guys like Blake Shelton and Lee Brice, Jamey Johnson and just kind of tell a couple of stories but also play the songs I put out and also just kind of play some of the songs that made me want to dedicate my whole life to country music. So really, it's just kind of a party. It's kind of like sitting around like we're doing now, just sitting around a studio or living room, shooting the breeze and and picking and frowning.
Lucas: And again, as far as the social media stuff, where can folks find you?
Jerrod: You think it would just be Jerrod Niemann, but I didn't really know what social media meant when it first came out. So, yep, being from Kansas, it's @jrodfromoz, like I said, really if I could change anything in my life, all I've done and not done. I would change that. But yes, please come get a little follow and let me know you heard it here and I'll definitely follow you back and maybe one day we'll be drinking some some Gentleman Jack together.
Lucas: There you go. Jerrod Niemann, thank you for joining us Around the Barrel.
Jerrod: Well, don’t invite me, I'll show up. And I appreciate the opportunity and Cheers.
Lucas: Thank you, sir
Around the Barrel is the official podcast of the Jack Daniel Distillery. Follow the podcast on the web at JackDaniels.com/podcast, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, rate, and review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you gather your on-demand audio. Always remember with great podcast and great whiskey, please enjoy responsibly. Join us next time for more conversations Around the Barrel. Your friends at Jack Daniel’s remind you to drink responsibly. Jack Daniel’s and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks, copyright 2018, Jack Daniel's Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume, 80 proof, distilled and bottled by Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. Around the Barrel is intended for listeners 21 years of age and older.
